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New Champ option ?

New Champ option ?

Postby jhooper/HRE » April 19th, 2017, 8:13 am

It is really important that we don't loose current Champ teams while trying to attract new ones so I am proposing we leave the current Champ rules alone and just add "option #2" that would compete head to head with current Champs.
Option #2- would be more appealing to racers on smaller budgets and maybe less engine tuning skills.
This 2nd option would look something like this:
#1- No titanium, magnesium or carbon fibre allowed {except carbon fibre reeds allowed}.
#2- no belt drives allowed, chains only
#3- production 600 engine with twin pipes and spec. carbs, no mods allowed except heads, reeds, exhaust port and ignition reprogram.
#4- 400 LBS. weight rule {we would need to do some testing to figure out a fair carb size to equalize hp to weight with these 2 engine options}
These engine rules would keep costs down considerably without making this option #2 completely lame to mechanics and spectators.
I believe totally stock engines are boring to most people and do not belong in the premier class.
John Hooper
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Re: New Champ option ?

Postby Mr.Pipe » April 19th, 2017, 1:33 pm

John, and Champ teams
I just don't see the 600 engines as being a viable option. Here's why:
ISR, and insurance companies would like to keep any changes made restrict the engines to around the same power that is being made now from the 440's.
The factories are working very hard on the 600's. The 600's sold this year for snow-cross, and the ones that will hit the market in the coming 2 years are MUCH better than what has been previously available.
If the snow-cross 600 engines are allowed, and twin pipes are allowed, you will need 28mm carbs to bring the power to just above where the 440's are now. Not to mention the problems that will show up from choking an engine down that far on the intake side, or trying to rev the 600's long stroke crankshafts in attempt to make the best possible power.
The only way the 600 's could work is with 34 mm carbs, and single pipes, and no internal modifications...and then you've created a class that required engines to be torn down in tech to be sure they are legal. I have no interest in engine's coming apart at the end of the day of racing. It may also require the racer to buy current year engines as the factories release their latest and greatest for snow-cross.
The way I see it, the grass is NOT greener on the 600 side!
Darcy
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Re: New Champ option ?

Postby Flatout » April 19th, 2017, 3:08 pm

We have a class very similar to what you are proposing and I think it is a great idea. It is called combo and pits the champs against the factory 600s. It is pretty well even. Obviously Darcy is opposed but it is the future of racing. Putting 28 mm carbs is not any different than running 34s at part throttle so I don't think it would be an issue.
As for no belt drives they are no more expensive than a custom chaincase and if designed properly is as tough or tougher than a chain. The problem has been people will damage a belt before they ins it or they use too small a top sprocket. Pfiffer can supply 8mm polychain sprockets at a reasonable cost. And they are so much lighter and cleaner.
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Re: New Champ option ?

Postby FmrCrew » April 20th, 2017, 7:36 am

The future of the Champ Class as we know it all depends on if Tommy Liper stays involved and still spends his own money, bottom line...Who will race for entry fees??

John what you are proposing sounds exactly like what the Sno-cross OPEN class has for rules....Just take a look at that class please...5 years ago before they voted on this stock set up like you proposed, they had roughly 25-30 entries that year, this year LUCKY to have 12...Wrong way in my opinion....Look at what they are proposing now, they are now looking at OPENING up the chassis to build anything you want NO rules..

It will come down to who has the contact to re program the ignition and fuel curve...thus the have and have nots will be further apart...Just look at the bender package in sno cross, just pay Tim 25K and he will give you the set up, and that includes a re programed ignition and full ECU...Kids who never won before win races now...

This could get real expensive and still have only 1 motor in the class... Who has provided the most power and the most help in the class could change every year, you could be chasing the manufacture each year...

This could only work IF and I say IF the manufactures get involved and make it a priority bringing more money to the class, like they did and do in Sno Cross....If you win a open class in Sno Cross for ACat 25K per win, Polaris 15K per win, Ski too 20K per win and goes down by 5K per place...If they don't get involved it won't work or matter..

The biggest fault in all racing is to allow and bring MORE rules into the sport, it ends up costing more and you get less involvement...Can anyone find a racing series that is going and getting better with more rules??? Look at NASCAR, Indy Car, F1....the biggest growing class in all racing is the Prototype style racing in sports cars!!! Why??? build what you like and other will follow and try and out build you and make there idea better, kind of sounds like the American way to me!!

TJ
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Re: New Champ option ?

Postby jhooper/HRE » April 20th, 2017, 8:15 am

TJ,
The engine rules I am proposing are VERY different from the snocross rules. They ran stock engines with fuel injection so you were screwed if you didn't have the connections for the best fuel/ignition mapping.
Supposedly "totally stock" engine rules never work just because of the reasons you stated.
We would use carbs just for that reason and mapping the ignition alone is simple.
I would also allow exhaust port and head mods along with base gasket changes so you would not need to have the "special connection" to get these "special" cylinders that are supposedly stock but are just a little better than the production stuff and it also keeps engine builders and tuners in the game.
I would like nothing better than totally open rules BUT you would only have 3 or 4 teams competitive after a season because we just do not have enough teams with access to enough money or technology.
I will repeat AGAIN, just look at F-500, tons of rules AND by far the most growth of ANY class of ice oval racing in the past 15 years.
I can GUARANTEE if we allowed the same chassis rules as F500 and just stuck limited 600 engines {and a hood to match the engine brand} in them and made it the premier class that replaces Champ we would have at least DOUBLE the entries the first season. It's a no-brainer.
Most of the current Champ teams would make the switch {even though they say they wouldn't} and about half of the better F-500 teams across the country would change engines and compete for the W.C.
There are around 50 of these sleds in Quebec and Ontario and 40 or 50 more in the mid-west and Beasejour.
This will probably never happen but if Promoters really want to see a lot of new racers and spectators this would be the easiest and quickest way.
John H.
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Re: New Champ option ?

Postby 1987wc » April 20th, 2017, 10:03 am

Open chassis no ti studs or backing plates production only 600 and let the teams do any internal mod with twin pipes. There entire sealed fuel system will be handed to them after they check in at race registration and then returned after the race.
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Re: New Champ option ?

Postby jhooper/HRE » April 20th, 2017, 10:39 am

Rules like that would just cause a few current Champ teams to quit because of greatly increased new engine expenses and would certainly not encourage teams with less $$ or tuning expertise to jump in.
Your response sounds a lot like TJ with just another name.
It's hard to believe any promoter would have this view with the current condition our sport is in.
John H.
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Re: New Champ option ?

Postby Mr.Pipe » April 20th, 2017, 11:48 am

John, I'm not opposed to changing rules to make the class more attractive to new racers, and I have no issue with most of what your suggesting to keep the cost down. I do think you're wrong about current racers leaving the sport with new 600 rules. I think you'll loose many when all of the complications involved in changing to new rules turn into arguments with no easy solution. My view is that the 440's are the right power for good competition. All 3 brands can be used for very competitive engines, as proven this year with great performances by 13, and 747 on a Polaris, 53 with Cat power, and 220 using a Ski-Doo 440. The 440's are reliable in the current form and power level, they don't require engine apart tech at the end of each race weekend, the parts last a long time with the RPM we spin them to, and even though SOME parts are getting hard to find new, there are LOTS and LOTS of great used 440 parts out there...enough for many many more years of racing with the rules as they are.
So, if the 440's are working well to put on a good show, all brands are being represented, and can be competitive. Very few 440's need to be towed off the track after burn downs or crank failures...they are reliable. And all current teams likely have inventory of the parts they think they will be needing if the rules stay the same.
So I ask....what are we trying to fix, or solve? And how can we expect changing to 600's to solve these issues. I could go on for a long time about the likely problems you're going to run into with a change to 600's but I won't go there right now.
Lets address the cost that I hear being mentioned ...I hear that it costs too much to have a 440 properly modified.
I'd like to put some facts out there on what it costs for a good 440 engine. I'd like to not mention names, but I can't properly make my point without doing so.
About 2 years ago, I modified the first engine for the 220 team. They supplied a new 440 engine in the box.
The cost to modify that engine for Champ racing was just around $6800 USD including pipes fit to their sled.
They did have other costs for a spare engine, and spare part prep, as well as carburetor prep ect, so you can understand when you hear rumors of higher cost. Those higher costs were for spares, and to set up to field 2 sleds with spares, but the fact is, that they could have raced with a $6800 engine, and the bit of cost for carburetors. If this sounds like it's too expensive? maybe consider that the 220 team has raced for 2 years on these parts, and did very well on Sunday afternoons. If you compare the cost of engine prep, to the cost of buying and prep on a 106 Champ track with all of the best parts, and consider how long each would last, I would conclude that the track could be as, or more costly with it's short life.
Maybe we are looking in the wrong place to lower costs perhaps?
Next lets address the availability of 440 parts :
I've heard "the factory has no more new XYZ's left"...how will we race? I made a lot of phone calls about this, and the conclusion was that the Ski-Doo parts system looks pretty good for parts, with parts being available to support Champ 440 racing for some time yet. Polaris is a little more limited, with new cylinders being the major component that is now NLA as new parts. After mentioning that, I'll add that used parts for all 3 brands are VERY plentiful. I also know of many examples of Champ races being won, with engines prepared starting with good used parts. One example of that might be
of interest is the spare engine that the 220 team used that was rebuilt from used parts, or maybe the #81 Pro-Light that ran fast at many races...it too was done with used parts. Properly selected, checked/inspected and rebuilt used parts are in many cases just as good as starting with new parts. I don't see a shortage of 440 parts happening any time soon. Yes, you might have to shop around, and you might have to reject some used parts that are too far gone to be used for racing, but saying there is a shortage of parts, is simply not true.

The way I see it is the 440 engine rule looks fine. Lets not try to fix something that's not broken. Why would you want to make changes to force racers to spend on a new engine program, and not only make their current 440 parts obsolete, but make them not even sale-able as well. It makes no sense to me.
Maybe we should consider that some of the people that want the rules changed, are ones that have burned too many bridges with a few of the good engine prep people. True Story! I'll call it as I see it!

Maybe we should start a thread on this forum pointing out some of the likely complications to using 600 engines in the Champ class. I'd be happy to share my thoughts on that.

Darcy
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Re: New Champ option ?

Postby Mr.Pipe » April 20th, 2017, 12:10 pm

Howard,
I would have expected you to understand engines better than you've shown when you made this statement: " Putting 28 mm carbs is not any different than running 34s at part throttle so I don't think it would be an issue."

Running an existing engine with 34's at part throttle is a lot different, as you will not have your engine with 34's being run at peak HP RPM with your 34 carbs part way open.

A modern, well developed 600 cc twin pipe engine with 28 mm carburetors (used to cut the power down to around 134hp after the pipe is optimized for this application) will struggle to pass enough fresh charge into the cylinder to properly evacuate the spent exhaust charge. An engine choked down that far on carbs and run at full load at the peak HP RPM of the pipe will be very prone to what I'll call "surprise burn-downs". It's a bad place to go.
A 600 with a single pipe and 34's will work, but will sound like a drone on the track.

But hey Howard, you could tell your buddy that your race sled uses the same engine as his wife's trail sled, just de-tuned a bit to make is safe to oval race....it even sounds the same.
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Re: New Champ option ?

Postby FmrCrew » April 20th, 2017, 7:42 pm

If Champ uses stock 600cc motors, I am not sure there will be any Arctic Cat motors, unless they redesign the chassis to accept the lay down motor...that would be expensive to change all the chassis locations and parts...Not to say I can not be done, BUT it won't be easy and will it even work..then you are down to 2 manufactures only...

TJ
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