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New Champ option ?

Re: New Champ option ?

Postby FmrCrew » April 27th, 2017, 6:20 am

I guess I am confused...The current model for the champ class for motors is 440cc, and the most expensive motors are $9,000.00 with spares just around 10K...This will get you how many seasons?? I would think 3-4 and lets even throw in a spare motor for another 10K so thats 20K and this should last 3-4 years with spares 25K...that to me doing the math is $6,000.00 to $8,000.00 per year!!! What is wrong with that?? You are not going to make it cheaper than that with new motors everyone has to purchase...Have you all seen vintage motors being built?? ( John you have built some) Some of those are the same price or more than Champ racing and vintage 440 has seen a BOOM!! over 35 entries for ERWC... Motors are not the issue I keep saying, it is the right people to make them fast and drive them, that pool is very small and getting smaller..it won't matter what motor you have the best tuners and drivers will always win..Put any one of the good tuners in champ and they would win every race in F500 with a average driver...

I have no idea how you fix that, but I don't see cost being the real issue with Champ racing as it is..Racing is expensive...You will always have the haves and have not's in what they spend in racing, thats just fact.

TJ
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Re: New Champ option ?

Postby jhooper/HRE » April 27th, 2017, 7:43 am

TJ,
I agree that engine costs are not the biggest problem but we do have a problem with parts availability.
I know there are quite a few racers that are considering getting in to Champ that lean toward a stock or spec. engine option even though we know it really doesn't save money.
I just think it's time we start considering all possibilities BEFORE we are at a crisis level on parts availability.
John H.
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Re: New Champ option ?

Postby Ovals Forever » October 11th, 2017, 7:10 pm

1987wc wrote:Open chassis no ti studs or backing plates production only 600 and let the teams do any internal mod with twin pipes. There entire sealed fuel system will be handed to them after they check in at race registration and then returned after the race.


Right on take away bite, hand them the fuel, a minimum driver sled weight, and run what you brung Very easy on tech and the spectators will love it, and that is one word that doesn't get mentioned enough "Spectators"

If you don't have spectators you don't have sponsors, if you don't have sponsors you don't have promoters, and if you don't have promoters you don't have racers

Instead of always wondering what racing rules can be changed more focus needs to be put on how many spectators are showing up to the races and what can be done to change that.

Nascar has more rules then the government has laws and all it has done is create empty seats
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Re: New Champ option ?

Postby Spy-Guy 74 » February 5th, 2018, 7:26 pm

I don't really know by bringing this post back to the top will help, but I think it's worth a try. If Champ is to continue, by all means somethings have to change or Champ goes by the wayside. In other words you'll find champ sleds in a museum or a man cave in the future. My opinion only, but I have watched a ton of champ finals.

Speeds are to high, look there's not that many guys in this racket but many get injuries where your out for the season. In the last ten years much has been done with safety, which is a very good thing but we have just as many injuries and some years more than the old days. When Champ was first introduced many racers were over thirty years of age, now most guys call it a career at that age. Getting hurt has much to do with that factor.

Cost is a factor, if the goal is to get more people involved and really now that's what the sport needs most. We used to lack tuners, now we don't even have enough drivers some weekends. Yes I do know many of the same teams will win, but at the same time we make it safer and cheaper you may see more people moving up or getting into the sport or some of the older guys sticking around.

I have my own ideas but would like to here what others have to offer. I have an open mind but at the same time I don't want to here how Mike Houle used to race those F-111 sleds with crazy speeds. The guys that think that way, trust me there aren't many Mike Houle's out there and really never will be. He was a animal back then, and really his sleds were not hooked like they are today. The last statement is not to take anything away from Mike, he most likely could have drove a sled just as hooked up and at higher speeds. Most guys can't or don't really want to try either.
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Re: New Champ option ?

Postby jhooper/HRE » February 8th, 2018, 6:22 am

I agree with pretty much everything you said, now if we could just get a lot of others to open their eyes and minds to make the needed changes to save our sport!
Problems:
#1 - too expensive
#2 - sleds too fast and too aggressive handling to be safe or drivable by more than a handful of racers.
#3 - too high tech in some areas for more than a handful of experienced tuners.
I still think we need something closer to an F-500 {INCLUDING THE 6 INCH CARBIDE RULE} just with newer engines with very limited mods. and mandatory late model replica hoods.
I truly believe that with rules like these you would have a full field of 36+ racers competing for the W.C.
John H.
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Re: New Champ option ?

Postby Flatout » February 8th, 2018, 1:30 pm

I agree with the 6" carbide rule but that will not reduce costs.
Engine cost and speed could be reduced by mandating stock cylinders and non modified oem spec pistons.
Chassis cost could be reduced by disallowing titanium studs, carbon fiber backing plates and aluminum billet t nuts and remote suspension adjusters. Also limit studs to 4 per bar including the hooker studs. Also a spec fuel pumped at the staging would eliminate any suspicion from variations in performance.
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Re: New Champ option ?

Postby Ovals Forever » February 9th, 2018, 6:16 pm

John I guess if you are calling stock engines boring you are calling F500 boring, I don't think F500 is boring in fact it's the biggest field of racers we have and arguably some of the best racing we have right now in case you haven't noticed, starting that class was in my opinion the best idea you have come up with thus far.

TJ there isn't any Arctic Cats out there now I don't think
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Re: New Champ option ?

Postby Ovals Forever » February 9th, 2018, 6:22 pm

jhooper/HRE wrote:I agree with pretty much everything you said, now if we could just get a lot of others to open their eyes and minds to make the needed changes to save our sport!
Problems:
#1 - too expensive
#2 - sleds too fast and too aggressive handling to be safe or drivable by more than a handful of racers.
#3 - too high tech in some areas for more than a handful of experienced tuners.
I still think we need something closer to an F-500 {INCLUDING THE 6 INCH CARBIDE RULE} just with newer engines with very limited mods. and mandatory late model replica hoods.
I truly believe that with rules like these you would have a full field of 36+ racers competing for the W.C.
John H.


You are 100% correct
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Re: New Champ option ?

Postby FmrCrew » February 20th, 2018, 8:25 am

Let me start by there where around 20 Champ sleds at the first race, thats a good number. Yes there have been some injuries that no one wants, but that is part of the sport...thee have been drivers hurt and out in other classes as well, including Pro Lite which has the most wrecks!! there will always be driver error!!

If you want to make the sport more expensive, tell every team that all the motors, sleds are not legal!! You want to see less entries, make it a stock class and everyone in Champ class has to buy new sleds and motors!!

the class is the most competitive class in snowmobile racing right now, look at the amount of drivers who have won!! Right now there are 10 drivers that can win!! Find another class in Snowmobile racing that can say that!!! I watch Wojo win just about every F500 race...maybe 2-3 drivers have a chance in F500 right now....

Champ is not broken!! I keep a close eye on the JRS F2 class they are the next champ drivers!!! That class puts on the best races of the weekend...Pro lite has some new drivers!! If you want more Champ entries, I think the Pro lite drivers are foolish NOT to enter the class for free to get laps and learn...Almost had a couple make the ERWC even..

The fact is if no Tommy Liper NO Champ class....

Want to make Champ better?? Get TV rights!! Hard to have a TV viewers if you can't see the sleds, we need to fix the snow dust issues, either it be the amount of sleds on track or some form of reduction in snowmobile dust...this will also make it SAFER...I would make leather race suits mandatory in Champ class for safety...

TJ
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Re: New Champ option ?

Postby FmrCrew » February 20th, 2018, 9:15 am

If you want to save costs and help the tuners, lets talk about going to a STOCK ignition...There are teams out there with multiple ignition boxes for diff tracks!! You can buy a stock box for 150-200 any where... Adjust your timing by moving the stator plate...

What about using a manual rear suspension actuator for hole shots? Not the automatic movable actuator...

What about lowering the Octane?? If you limit the SPEC fuel to 100-110 octane you eliminate some compression thus less HP thus the motors last longer..Maybe a motor builder can say how much HP is lost doing this? I would estimate maybe 3-5 MPH in speed.

Carbon fiber always gets mentioned so let me address that. the hoods will save you money in the long haul, case in point Colt Dellandria has flipped his sled 3 times this year, the hood looks like new still with 1 hole 1/4 on the top of the hood...That would be 3 fiber glass hoods, with graphics, fitting and let alone carrying 2 hood to every race..If they don't use CF on many braces, they will drill holes after holes making it lighter (fuel tank braces, bumper mounts, ect.)thus making the part weak!!! We basically only make hoods and track plates, lower fenders on some chassis..

It all boils down to HARD work, I know I have said this many times...Look at Blaine Stevenson!! Won ERWC on a stock Wahl chassis, Polaris motor, and just won Luxemberg last weekend...I would bet they tested and tested and found something..Look at Glen Hart!! he will win. race next year!!! Worked his ass off all summer and payed off.

TJ
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