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Re: New Champ option ?

PostPosted: March 8th, 2018, 7:18 am
by FmrCrew
So if they go to a lower spec motor do you think that Darcy, Hopoer will not build motors still? Yes they will and it will be relatively the same, some people will get there motors some won't...Will they find extra HP, I would bet they do, so will it be any different? Take a Good motor that cost 10K, I know teams that have 3-5 year old Darcy motors still using them every weekend, so is that a expensive motor??

I have been around long enough to know it still takes GREAT clutching no matter if you have 10 HP on someone!!

You still need to get around the corner better than anyone, HP won't make it turn...

Fact is Lower budget teams will always have a tougher time beating the big budget teams!! Smaller teams need to work harder than bigger teams to achieve the same results, it is that way in life as well...Big teams will have spare sleds small teams don't..can change that..Smaller teams can win in Champ, like I have said before it will take a couple years learning the trade at the highest level, just fact....The question is how long will they try and will they try hard enough?

You can dummy down the Champ class and the results in the end will be the exact same...same riders/teams winning...

I am not trying to be a downer here just stating facts...I love Johns attitude that he will build a new chassis and kick everyone ass again!!! Thats why he won lots of races and still does!!! Thats what racing in the top is about!!! I am sure Wahl, Houle, Darcy are saying the same thing!!! Thats what makes this class different and the goal of most young racers!!


Re: New Champ option ?

PostPosted: March 12th, 2018, 11:50 am
by crwdog
This has been a fun discussion to follow. May valid opinions.
How is the Pro Lite class? is this growing? It is setup to be the less expensive version of champ to help transition, right?

My instinct says that there are changes that must take place in champ. But what those exactly are..... I don't know. Safety should be the 1st, future sustainability with an emphasis on parts and speed next.


Re: New Champ option ?

PostPosted: March 12th, 2018, 4:10 pm
by watcher
Mod 600, F-600, Champ 600 or What Ever Class

Stock Base 600cc OEM Snowmobile Two Stroke Engine 2010 or Newer
Allowed to Change Mod Head/ Heads or Replace
Allowed to replace Reeds
No shared air or Boast Bottle
Mikuni round slide 38.2mm Max bore
Stock OEM Cylinders
OEM base Gasket/ Gaskets, No Spacer Plates under Cylinder
Stock OEM Crank Shaft
Stock OEM Crank Case
Stock OEM Bore / Stroke
OEM Ignition for Brand Make of Engine
Any Single or Dual Exhaust must be silenced per ISR Book point down to ground
Oil Injection system maybe Discounted
Fuel VP MS105L
Only One (1) fuel tank Allowed on Sled

Any OEM or Hand Built allowed
No Carbon Fiber except for Hood and Cowling and Throttle Lever, Brake Lever
Any Ski or Skies Max width 45” Per ISR Book
Carbides per ISR Book
Any Rear Skid No Carbon Fiber allowed on front or rear skid
No Computer controled shocks or Sway Bar
Minimum Weight 400lbs

Any 116 inch or Longer Track allowed
Minimum 13.5 inches
Hooker plates allowed only over window
No Titanium or Carbon Fiber Studs or Backer Plates
Studs rule per ISR Book

No Carbon Fiber
No Titanium
No Belt drive chain case
Any Length Chain Case
Direct Drive is allowed

Any OEM Clutches maybe modified Carbon Fiber Cover Allowed
Quick Change Clutches allowed

Safety All safety Issues per ISR Book
No Carbon Fiber except were written
No Titanium any place on sled

Beat this up....

Re: New Champ option ?

PostPosted: March 12th, 2018, 5:51 pm
by FmrCrew
Very similar to the Sno Cross rules. has not helped that Pro class at all as they have 12 riders all manufactures sleds...

I see this as a WHO has the best ECU....If that is not regulated it will divide the class further apart than you could imagine. As I mentioned before in sno cross, if you pay for a Bender set up you get ECU re-flashed and clutching and you will win no matter who...Huge gains in ECU...Needs controlled.

I can see this as being a 1 manufacture series then too...

Can anyone estimate the HP? I know the same motor in Pro Sno cross is 160ish. Champ is now 130ish...Speeds?

Might be the only option???

As a carbon fiber supplier I have no issue with limiting us if it helps costs, but they will spend it somewhere else...

I personally would like to see some safety implemented....Much to do there..

I see that someone has to build this set up and try it on same race weekends as Champ next year, maybe a special class? ( did this before 4-5 years ago with 600cc) ...There are a few spare sleds out there, but no one is going to do it for free so who will PAY for the testing??? Motors, pipes, track, suspensions, chain case, won't be a spare sled to anyone anymore...going to need to take some purse away to pay for it I forsee..

Re: New Champ option ?

PostPosted: March 12th, 2018, 6:49 pm
by watcher
OK, i give you the Best ECU, but now is not Polaris ECU on a BRP engine is the best package? open the rules up to any ECU OEM or Aftermarket (MSD)? but no traction control allowed. I can see the price tag just sky rocketed, This weekend this next weekend that, following weekend over there. let put Points and Cond back on and see who can adjust them


Re: New Champ option ?

PostPosted: March 12th, 2018, 8:07 pm
by FmrCrew
No my point is there needs to be a 1-3 options of ECU, Big track, small tracks and ER...The Manufacture will need to set them and give them to the teams...Right now only the Manufactures can flash there own ECU, BUT give me a couple months I can get it where I can flash my own!!! thats what I am saying...I priced it and had it ready to be done...It can be done...Once that happens the gap will widen...Each ECU needs to be handed out at each event and bar coded and gave back after event...they can have her own 3 but at the track it needs to be supplied...


Re: New Champ option ?

PostPosted: March 13th, 2018, 11:59 am
by watcher
So, We have 6833 Views on this Subject. Does any one else have any thought on what it would take to make the Best of what we got now in Champ 440. The Rule for Champ 440 is up....Time to tell the World what you think, Put your thought out, don't care if they get beat up or not, the only way is to look outside of what we have now and put it on paper, you just might hit it out of the park! What do like now.... what do hate about the class......what would you like to see, Tell it now or it maybe to Late??????

No Horse in the Race

Re: New Champ option ?

PostPosted: March 13th, 2018, 1:45 pm
by crwdog
Doesn't matter what WE say here. Nothing will change unless the affiliate bodies bring the rule changes to the ISR meeting for discussion and voting

Re: New Champ option ?

PostPosted: March 13th, 2018, 2:08 pm
by watcher
I Totally Understand, Been at the ISR Meeting for 16+ years. But if you give your thoughts to the Affiliation, they might think twice on what you had to say. If the Affiliation don't listen to what you have to say, then we can blame them for the failure. If you keep all your thoughts to yourself then whom is to blame? throw it out and it might be the one that they all like????


Re: New Champ option ?

PostPosted: March 13th, 2018, 4:32 pm
by Spy-Guy 74
I think everyone knows if some changes are not made, we won't be talking about the class in less than three years. So all the affiliates should be on board to make the class more viable, and we need change to make sure that happens.

Watcher I think the way you laid out the rules for a 600 class there would be speeds higher than we have now. Fans relate better to 600's for sure, one of the reasons Snow Cross went away from the 440 in the first place.

I've always been on the side to leave Champ alone unless it was a safety issue. Now I see in the long run that isn't a workable plan. We can do whatever we want, the manufactures themselves don't care at this time. I don't think anybody would argue even if there was one brand of motor and even one motor builder and people just ran different colors. My gut says that isn't the direction we should go, but trust me I've been wrong plenty of times before!

I was around for the first elite races in ovals, my hope is I wouldn't be around for the last race. So I hope somebody steps to the plate and comes up with a workable plan. I believe the plan we have now for Pro lite would not be workable for Champ class either down the road. To make this work we need new people entering the sport and others stepping up from where there at now. It's not going to be easy, but at the same time I think it can be done. Remember you can go back into the archives we talked about this many times, but we really haven't come up with a workable plan.